{"id":43753,"date":"2025-03-03T15:32:56","date_gmt":"2025-03-03T15:32:56","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.peterlang.com\/?post_type=article&#038;p=43753"},"modified":"2025-03-03T15:32:56","modified_gmt":"2025-03-03T15:32:56","slug":"celebration-is-agency","status":"publish","type":"article","link":"https:\/\/www.peterlang.com\/fr\/article\/celebration-is-agency\/","title":{"rendered":"Celebration Is Agency: An Interview with Dr. Lee Francis 4 on Indigenous Popular Culture, Then and Now"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p>Having fun is a serious business. <em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.peterlang.com\/document\/1371204\">IndigePop: A Companion<\/a><\/em>, an edited collection published in December 2024 by Peter Lang, makes this point as it explores the dynamic and multifaceted field of contemporary Indigenous popular culture. Indigenous popular culture celebrates the Indigenous popular and Indigenous nerdy creativity in all their manifestations, gaining increasing momentum since the turn of the twenty-first century. The contributions in the book offer a range of perspectives on the Indigenous popular by scholars, artists and practitioners who work with and in the field of Indigenous popular culture in various capacities, from different standpoints, and in a range of geopolitical contexts. The origins of the book go back to the Indigenous Comic Con 2, which took place in Albuquerque, New Mexico, in November 2017, and which we had the privilege of attending. There we had a chance to speak to participants and organizers, who generously shared their perspectives on the event and on Indigenous popular culture with us. These conversations and experiences inform the book in many significant ways.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"aligncenter size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"664\" height=\"1000\" src=\"https:\/\/www.peterlang.com\/app\/uploads\/2025\/03\/indigepop.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43733\" style=\"width:206px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.peterlang.com\/app\/uploads\/2025\/03\/indigepop.png 664w, https:\/\/www.peterlang.com\/app\/uploads\/2025\/03\/indigepop-199x300.png 199w, https:\/\/www.peterlang.com\/app\/uploads\/2025\/03\/indigepop-316x477.png 316w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 664px) 100vw, 664px\" \/><figcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Cover image of <em>IndigePop: A Companion<\/em><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p>Popular culture moves fast. As we were working on the book, Indigenous popular culture continued its dynamic expansion, going from strength to strength. Dr. Lee Francis 4 (Pueblo of Laguna), the founder of the Indigenous Comic Con and the Executive Director of Native Realities who contributed to <em>IndigePop<\/em> in more ways than one, is at the center of many of the initiatives in the field, both old and new. We had a chance to interview him at the Indigenous Comic Con back in 2017, and we were delighted and honored when he agreed to speak to us about the state of the art of Indigenous popular culture on the threshold of 2025. His remarks give insights into the latest developments and milestones of Indigenous popular culture, and also situate the book in its larger context.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"aligncenter size-large is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"768\" height=\"1024\" src=\"https:\/\/www.peterlang.com\/app\/uploads\/2025\/03\/indigepop1-768x1024.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43736\" style=\"width:320px;height:auto\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.peterlang.com\/app\/uploads\/2025\/03\/indigepop1-768x1024.png 768w, https:\/\/www.peterlang.com\/app\/uploads\/2025\/03\/indigepop1-225x300.png 225w, https:\/\/www.peterlang.com\/app\/uploads\/2025\/03\/indigepop1.png 1011w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 768px) 100vw, 768px\" \/><figcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Native Realities vendor booth on the eve of the Indigenous Comic Con 2 (2017). The display features the artwork <em>Thundergirl <\/em>by Kathleen Wall (Jemez Pueblo). Isleta Resort and Casino, Albuquerque, New Mexico. Photo by Svetlana Seibel.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\r\n\r\n<div class=\"appeal-spacer  appeal-spacer--69deb41a015cb\" aria-hidden=\"true\">\r\n    <style>\r\n        .appeal-spacer--69deb41a015cb { height: 50px; }<!--\r\n        -->@media (max-width: 1919px) {\r\n            .appeal-spacer--69deb41a015cb { height: 50px; }\r\n        }<!--\r\n        -->@media (max-width: 1023px) {\r\n            .appeal-spacer--69deb41a015cb { height: 25px; }\r\n        }<!--\r\n        -->@media (max-width: 599px) {\r\n            .appeal-spacer--69deb41a015cb { height: 25px; }\r\n        }\r\n    <\/style>\r\n<\/div>\r\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Interview with Dr. Lee Francis 4<\/strong><br><strong>12 December 2024, Zoom<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>*The interview is slightly edited for clarity and readability.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>SVETLANA<br>During our interview back then [in 2017] we asked you about the development of Indigenous pop culture at the time, and where it was at the time. Seven years have passed now \u2013 almost exactly, it was November \u2013 so, which significant trends and developments have taken place since, in your view? What is the current status of Indigenous pop culture?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>LEE<br>Yeah. When we got started\u2026 And I mean, we gotta go back a little bit too, because when I first started working with comics that was 2012, and there was this sort of emerging\u2026 There were some folks that were working on things, but really not a lot \u2013 there was this small group, the Indigenous Narratives Collective, there was Arigon Starr\u2019s work and John Proudstar and the initial folks that we were working with. And really all the way for that first four years, up until about 2016 when we launched the first Comic Con, there wasn\u2019t\u2026 you know, there were people that were really sort of scattered, doing small things. And I think what that first event did was really put a lot of names into the public sphere. And so, what we\u2019ve seen in these last seven years, from 2017 on, is really this explosion of Indigenous pop culture creativity. So you see a lot of folks that have been a part of the comic cons \u2013 the IPX and Indigenous Comic Con moving forward \u2013 you\u2019ve seen a lot of them just taking off on the work that they have, the collaborations that they\u2019ve contributed to, a lot of the folks that were a part of those initial comic book works that we did, we\u2019re seeing a lot of their work now into the mainstream. You know, just in that time period we\u2019ve seen the rise of a lot more Native television, a lot more Native cinema \u2013 so, <em>Prey <\/em>came out on Hulu; you saw <em>Reservation Dogs<\/em>, of course, and the work that they did with that; you see the Marvel stuff, you see Echo and you see Kahhori from the <em>What If\u2026?<\/em> series getting her own comic now. So, you\u2019re seeing a lot of these developments that weren\u2019t really present seven years ago, so I think, really, the biggest impact that we had was putting all of that work front and center and really allowing people to find those people online. I still get folks, but definitely within those three initial years people were contacting us, being like, \u201cWho are your guests? Who are your vendors? We wanna find more artists,\u201d with people coming out to interview and put together projects based on the people that we were working with and collaborating with. So, I think that\u2019s really what we\u2019ve seen, is just this explosion of talent. And now you have all these kids\u2019 books that are out, and you still have more mass media that\u2019s come out \u2013 they did the Marvel <em>Indigenous Voices <\/em>[in 2020], and they\u2019re still releasing pieces of that, those are <em>all<\/em> people that were really a part of the first inception of this, first couple of years. <em>\u00a0<\/em>\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>SVETLANA<br>And when you look at all these developments, are there any milestones that you think were particularly influential?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>LEE<br>Yeah, the release of <em>Reservation Dogs<\/em> \u2013 that was, like, three years ago, four years ago \u2013 I think that was hugely influential. I think the Marvel <em>Indigenous Voices <\/em>was hugely influential. So, I think those two were really putting folks into these mainstream conversations and pop culture conversations. I mean, Sterlin Harjo won the McArthur Fellowship within this last year. So, that is what we\u2019re seeing. And then you see the cartoons and the kids\u2019 stuff that\u2019s come out, and <em>Spirit Rangers <\/em>was another milestone, so you have a kids\u2019 cartoon on Netflix. So I think those are these big moments, but I even think \u00a0just\u2026 obviously, continuing on with the Comic Con, with Pop Culture X, the stuff that we\u2019ve done, now we\u2019re seeing more of those \u2013 so, SkasdiCon in Oklahoma, Cherokee Nation; the \u00e1yA Con in Denver; these other Native-centered, Native-specific conventions where people are, like, yeah, we still want people to come together, we still wanna have these moments where we can do this kind of work and these collaborative, amazing creative spaces. I think those are still a lot of the great milestones that we\u2019ve had.\u00a0 \u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>SVETLANA<br>Yeah. I guess the first Comic Con remains this watershed moment for Indigenous pop culture, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>LEE<br>Yeah. Yeah. I think 2016 really set a lot of things in motion. And looking back on it, in building careers, connecting up with folks, I think that really\u2026 it was so unique, it\u2019s something that I feel was <em>so<\/em> <em>needed<\/em>, and continues to be needed, that I was just\u2026 I\u2019m always stoked to have founded it and been influential in continuing its success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>SVETLANA<br>So, it did impact \u2013 and change, you could say, also \u2013 Indigenous pop culture, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>LEE<br>I absolutely believe it did, yeah. I mean, you\u2019ll have to check in with other folks, but for me I think there is a definite change from this moment.\u00a0 \u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>KATI<br>You talked about this a little bit already, but if you look at the bigger picture, so how do you think, or do you think that the Indigenous Comic Con has had an impact or influence on the popular culture at large?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>LEE<br>I think it gave Native folks, Indigenous folks a space to be able to showcase their talent, and in a different way that wasn\u2019t tied to previous notions of what is Indigenous art. And I still think that that\u2019s the impact. The impact is allowing Native creatives permission, you know \u2013 because they know there is a space where they\u2019re gonna be welcomed for doing things that are avant-garde, for doing things that are not conforming to what the Americanized ideal of\u2026 the American mythology of Native art, Native identity is supposed to look like. So, you still have cosplay, you still have comic books, you still have these reappropriations of mainstream \u2013 or Indiginizations of mainstream pop culture things that Native folks are still grabbing onto and claiming as their own. So, I think it\u2019s still really about the creatives, and I think that that\u2019s the part that has been the longest lasting impact. \u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>KATI<br>If you think, then, a little bit the other way around, do you think Indigenous representation in mainstream popular culture is improving?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>LEE<br>I think\u2026 yeah, slowly, very slowly. You know, when I talk about this, I\u2019m, like, this is four hundred years of Natives in pop culture, and I continue to write about this, this liminal space that Native folks occupy \u2013 you still see it. I mean, every year we have to put out, you know, please don\u2019t dress up for Halloween, Natives are not a costume. So, there\u2019s not been this overnight shift, but you\u2019re seeing a lot more in the conversation of folks that are wanting to be much more authentic, much more deliberate in their ways that they\u2019re framing \u2013 especially artistically \u2013 the ways that they\u2019re writing about or framing Native identity and Native folks and being much more specific about it. There\u2019s still a long way to go, you still see a lot of the same tropes that show up, and it is one of the dilemmas\u2026 in any type of identity markers, the dilemma is how do you showcase that in a visual way, so the people understand that that person comes from this particular heritage. With Native folks, because it\u2019s so specific, there are so many cultural tropes, stereotypes, but also touchpoints, because of the interchange of ideas, because of the interchange of art throughout histories and time immemorial, that\u2019s the balance that still continues on, especially as a Native artist. So, how do we recognize that a character or somebody we put out there is Native without certain markings, without certain pieces to that? So, there\u2019s still a balance in that [that] I think is always gonna be a struggle, because our identity has been dictated to us for four hundred years, and we\u2019ve just\u2026 I mean, it\u2019s been within two generations, three generations that we\u2019ve been reclaiming it \u2013 in mass media, in popular media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>KATI<br>Yeah, yeah. The Indigenous Comic Con took place in North America, and many of the developments that we\u2019ve been talking about had been taking place in North America as well. So, if you think in more global terms, how do you see Indigenous popular culture globally, developing on a more global scale?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>LEE<br>There\u2019s so much great work that\u2019s going [on]\u2026 So, it exists sort of in two frames. I think you definitely see the idea of the Native American as a global concept, and so that\u2019s still something that we\u2019re trying to change those perceptions, because\u2026 I think that because it was American pop culture spreading everywhere you still have these entrenched views of what Native <em>America<\/em> is. For global Indigeneity, I think you\u2019re still looking at an evolving terminology around how we\u2019re codifying what does that mean. So, in some of my travels \u2013 obviously, we hosted a Comic Con in 2019 in Australia, and so talking about that, seeing what folks have been doing down there, and my colleague that was the host for that event [Cienan Muir] continues talking about Indigenous Australian identity and what does that mean for their popular culture. Because they have a different set of movies and films, and identity, but you can see things \u2013 I think one of the movies down there that was really solid\u2026 or it was a TV show, called <em>Cleverman<\/em>, and that was going on in 2017, I believe, and that was an Indigenous person with superpowers, and what they were doing with that. Now, that didn\u2019t make it <em>this<\/em> direction, but it was something that was internal. You see the same thing with our M\u0101ori relations in New Zealand, they\u2019re making comics and they\u2019re putting things forward. So, I think a lot of this is using this medium, this pop culture spheres to be able to address the ways in which representation has been detrimental to Indigenous communities. And I think that that\u2019s what we\u2019re seeing globally \u2013 a lot of it having to do with digital access, and the ease with which you can put a lot of this forward.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>KATI<br>We\u2019ve been talking about the recent developments in the past years now, but there are certainly many exciting developments in Indigenous popular culture ahead. So, what is the vision going forward? Are there any specific new initiatives you would like to mention?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>LEE<br>Yeah. This next year we\u2019re going to be here on the East Coast, so we\u2019ll be out here in North Carolina, so focusing some attention out here to our East Coast relatives, because, again, this concept of Indigenous identity is very Western-oriented. And so, wanting to continue the conversation and allow for Native creatives that are Eastern relations to be able to showcase their work as well, and inspire them to be a part of some of that stuff. So that\u2019s one of the big things that I\u2019ve been working on the last couple of years, really trying to get a lot of this work grounded on the East Coast and being able to tell more of these Eastern stories. I think that we\u2019re doing a lot around world building. The new organization that we\u2019ve brought everything under these last years is called the Indigenous Imagination Workshop, so the idea is how we\u2019re cultivating a lot of these concepts coming from these places of fantasy and science fiction and Indigenous futurisms, how are we now applying that in our own communities. Like, what do we want for these fantastical worlds? If we have these superpowers, what do we do with them? How do we make our communities better? And then, how do we actualize that, that\u2019s the inspiration to spark the imagination. So, I\u2019m working on a piece right now that talks about this intersection of generational trauma, and intergenerational trauma, and its effects on the imagination. And so, what does that look like when you have\u2026 or doom and imagination, right? We can see all the terrible things, but we have continued to survive, and thrive in many ways, and so how does that look when you\u2019re having to deal with trauma, \u2018cause trauma creates roadblocks for imagining. So, how do we work through those and utilize pop culture and utilize these spaces to spark that imagination in our next generations? \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>SVETLANA<br>And one last question maybe. I was thinking about the importance \u2013 and we stressed it in the book as well \u2013 the importance of the celebratory aspect of Indigenous popular culture, the celebration and the having fun. So, I was wondering whether you have any thoughts on that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>LEE<br>I think it still comes down to celebration, right? \u00a0Like, how do we have moments of joy? Even within the framing\u2026 I mean, everything is always political, but it\u2019s this\u2026 I think the counterpoint in pop culture that still holds true, what we have available to us is to find ways to celebrate our identity, our continued exitance, without fetishizing tragedy. Because <em>that<\/em>\u2019s been the perpetual narrative, it\u2019s about fetishizing Native tragedy \u2013 everything [that] happened, look at the poor\u2026, you know, look how terrible everything is for them. And so, the celebration, also, it\u2019s celebration of resistance, celebration of empowerment. Celebration, I believe, gives you agency, and gives people the chance to\u2026 when you can celebrate, in moments, then you are able to more effectively dictate the terms through which you are going to navigate a colonial\/postcolonial society.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>SVETLANA<br>Yeah, very true. Thank you so very much, this was great! Thank you for your time, and for doing this.<\/p>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\">\n<figure class=\"aligncenter size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"139\" height=\"139\" src=\"https:\/\/www.peterlang.com\/app\/uploads\/2025\/03\/Francis4-1.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-43745\" style=\"width:231px;height:auto\"\/><figcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dr. Lee Francis 4<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n<p><strong>Dr. Lee Francis 4<\/strong>, aka Dr. IndigiNerd, is the CEO of A Tribe Called Geek (ATCG) Media and the Executive Director of Native Realities, both of which are dedicated to creating pop culture media that celebrates Indigenous identity. He is the founder of the Indigenous Comic Con and an award-winning editor of over a dozen comic books and graphic novels. Lee has won accolades for his work on <em>Ghost River<\/em>, <em>Sixkiller<\/em> and <em>Native New York<\/em>. You can find more about his work on social media @dr_ indiginerd. He lives in North Carolina with his family.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.peterlang.com\/document\/1371204\">Discover the book here. <\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"featured_media":43751,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"content-type":"","footnotes":""},"category":[148],"topic":[151],"language":[150],"class_list":["post-43753","article","type-article","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-pleins-feux-sur-titre","topic-les-arts","language-anglaise"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO Premium plugin v24.6 (Yoast SEO v24.9) - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Celebration Is Agency: An Interview with Dr. Lee Francis 4 on Indigenous Popular Culture, Then and Now - Peter Lang<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.peterlang.com\/fr\/article\/celebration-is-agency\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"fr_FR\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Celebration Is Agency: An Interview with Dr. Lee Francis 4 on Indigenous Popular Culture, Then and Now\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Having fun is a serious business. IndigePop: A Companion, an edited collection published in December 2024 by Peter Lang, makes this point as it explores the dynamic and multifaceted field of contemporary Indigenous popular culture. 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