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Having fun is a serious business. IndigePop: A Companion, an edited collection published in December 2024 by Peter Lang, makes this point as it explores the dynamic and multifaceted field of contemporary Indigenous popular culture. Indigenous popular culture celebrates the Indigenous popular and Indigenous nerdy creativity in all their manifestations, gaining increasing momentum since the turn of the twenty-first century. The contributions in the book offer a range of perspectives on the Indigenous popular by scholars, artists and practitioners who work with and in the field of Indigenous popular culture in various capacities, from different standpoints, and in a range of geopolitical contexts. The origins of the book go back to the Indigenous Comic Con 2, which took place in Albuquerque, New Mexico, in November 2017, and which we had the privilege of attending. There we had a chance to speak to participants and organizers, who generously shared their perspectives on the event and on Indigenous popular culture with us. These conversations and experiences inform the book in many significant ways.
Popular culture moves fast. As we were working on the book, Indigenous popular culture continued its dynamic expansion, going from strength to strength. Dr. Lee Francis 4 (Pueblo of Laguna), the founder of the Indigenous Comic Con and the Executive Director of Native Realities who contributed to IndigePop in more ways than one, is at the center of many of the initiatives in the field, both old and new. We had a chance to interview him at the Indigenous Comic Con back in 2017, and we were delighted and honored when he agreed to speak to us about the state of the art of Indigenous popular culture on the threshold of 2025. His remarks give insights into the latest developments and milestones of Indigenous popular culture, and also situate the book in its larger context.
Interview with Dr. Lee Francis 4
12 December 2024, Zoom
*The interview is slightly edited for clarity and readability.
SVETLANA
During our interview back then [in 2017] we asked you about the development of Indigenous pop culture at the time, and where it was at the time. Seven years have passed now – almost exactly, it was November – so, which significant trends and developments have taken place since, in your view? What is the current status of Indigenous pop culture?
LEE
Yeah. When we got started… And I mean, we gotta go back a little bit too, because when I first started working with comics that was 2012, and there was this sort of emerging… There were some folks that were working on things, but really not a lot – there was this small group, the Indigenous Narratives Collective, there was Arigon Starr’s work and John Proudstar and the initial folks that we were working with. And really all the way for that first four years, up until about 2016 when we launched the first Comic Con, there wasn’t… you know, there were people that were really sort of scattered, doing small things. And I think what that first event did was really put a lot of names into the public sphere. And so, what we’ve seen in these last seven years, from 2017 on, is really this explosion of Indigenous pop culture creativity. So you see a lot of folks that have been a part of the comic cons – the IPX and Indigenous Comic Con moving forward – you’ve seen a lot of them just taking off on the work that they have, the collaborations that they’ve contributed to, a lot of the folks that were a part of those initial comic book works that we did, we’re seeing a lot of their work now into the mainstream. You know, just in that time period we’ve seen the rise of a lot more Native television, a lot more Native cinema – so, Prey came out on Hulu; you saw Reservation Dogs, of course, and the work that they did with that; you see the Marvel stuff, you see Echo and you see Kahhori from the What If…? series getting her own comic now. So, you’re seeing a lot of these developments that weren’t really present seven years ago, so I think, really, the biggest impact that we had was putting all of that work front and center and really allowing people to find those people online. I still get folks, but definitely within those three initial years people were contacting us, being like, “Who are your guests? Who are your vendors? We wanna find more artists,” with people coming out to interview and put together projects based on the people that we were working with and collaborating with. So, I think that’s really what we’ve seen, is just this explosion of talent. And now you have all these kids’ books that are out, and you still have more mass media that’s come out – they did the Marvel Indigenous Voices [in 2020], and they’re still releasing pieces of that, those are all people that were really a part of the first inception of this, first couple of years.
SVETLANA
And when you look at all these developments, are there any milestones that you think were particularly influential?
LEE
Yeah, the release of Reservation Dogs – that was, like, three years ago, four years ago – I think that was hugely influential. I think the Marvel Indigenous Voices was hugely influential. So, I think those two were really putting folks into these mainstream conversations and pop culture conversations. I mean, Sterlin Harjo won the McArthur Fellowship within this last year. So, that is what we’re seeing. And then you see the cartoons and the kids’ stuff that’s come out, and Spirit Rangers was another milestone, so you have a kids’ cartoon on Netflix. So I think those are these big moments, but I even think just… obviously, continuing on with the Comic Con, with Pop Culture X, the stuff that we’ve done, now we’re seeing more of those – so, SkasdiCon in Oklahoma, Cherokee Nation; the áyA Con in Denver; these other Native-centered, Native-specific conventions where people are, like, yeah, we still want people to come together, we still wanna have these moments where we can do this kind of work and these collaborative, amazing creative spaces. I think those are still a lot of the great milestones that we’ve had.
SVETLANA
Yeah. I guess the first Comic Con remains this watershed moment for Indigenous pop culture, right?
LEE
Yeah. Yeah. I think 2016 really set a lot of things in motion. And looking back on it, in building careers, connecting up with folks, I think that really… it was so unique, it’s something that I feel was so needed, and continues to be needed, that I was just… I’m always stoked to have founded it and been influential in continuing its success.
SVETLANA
So, it did impact – and change, you could say, also – Indigenous pop culture, right?
LEE
I absolutely believe it did, yeah. I mean, you’ll have to check in with other folks, but for me I think there is a definite change from this moment.
KATI
You talked about this a little bit already, but if you look at the bigger picture, so how do you think, or do you think that the Indigenous Comic Con has had an impact or influence on the popular culture at large?
LEE
I think it gave Native folks, Indigenous folks a space to be able to showcase their talent, and in a different way that wasn’t tied to previous notions of what is Indigenous art. And I still think that that’s the impact. The impact is allowing Native creatives permission, you know – because they know there is a space where they’re gonna be welcomed for doing things that are avant-garde, for doing things that are not conforming to what the Americanized ideal of… the American mythology of Native art, Native identity is supposed to look like. So, you still have cosplay, you still have comic books, you still have these reappropriations of mainstream – or Indiginizations of mainstream pop culture things that Native folks are still grabbing onto and claiming as their own. So, I think it’s still really about the creatives, and I think that that’s the part that has been the longest lasting impact.
KATI
If you think, then, a little bit the other way around, do you think Indigenous representation in mainstream popular culture is improving?
LEE
I think… yeah, slowly, very slowly. You know, when I talk about this, I’m, like, this is four hundred years of Natives in pop culture, and I continue to write about this, this liminal space that Native folks occupy – you still see it. I mean, every year we have to put out, you know, please don’t dress up for Halloween, Natives are not a costume. So, there’s not been this overnight shift, but you’re seeing a lot more in the conversation of folks that are wanting to be much more authentic, much more deliberate in their ways that they’re framing – especially artistically – the ways that they’re writing about or framing Native identity and Native folks and being much more specific about it. There’s still a long way to go, you still see a lot of the same tropes that show up, and it is one of the dilemmas… in any type of identity markers, the dilemma is how do you showcase that in a visual way, so the people understand that that person comes from this particular heritage. With Native folks, because it’s so specific, there are so many cultural tropes, stereotypes, but also touchpoints, because of the interchange of ideas, because of the interchange of art throughout histories and time immemorial, that’s the balance that still continues on, especially as a Native artist. So, how do we recognize that a character or somebody we put out there is Native without certain markings, without certain pieces to that? So, there’s still a balance in that [that] I think is always gonna be a struggle, because our identity has been dictated to us for four hundred years, and we’ve just… I mean, it’s been within two generations, three generations that we’ve been reclaiming it – in mass media, in popular media.
KATI
Yeah, yeah. The Indigenous Comic Con took place in North America, and many of the developments that we’ve been talking about had been taking place in North America as well. So, if you think in more global terms, how do you see Indigenous popular culture globally, developing on a more global scale?
LEE
There’s so much great work that’s going [on]… So, it exists sort of in two frames. I think you definitely see the idea of the Native American as a global concept, and so that’s still something that we’re trying to change those perceptions, because… I think that because it was American pop culture spreading everywhere you still have these entrenched views of what Native America is. For global Indigeneity, I think you’re still looking at an evolving terminology around how we’re codifying what does that mean. So, in some of my travels – obviously, we hosted a Comic Con in 2019 in Australia, and so talking about that, seeing what folks have been doing down there, and my colleague that was the host for that event [Cienan Muir] continues talking about Indigenous Australian identity and what does that mean for their popular culture. Because they have a different set of movies and films, and identity, but you can see things – I think one of the movies down there that was really solid… or it was a TV show, called Cleverman, and that was going on in 2017, I believe, and that was an Indigenous person with superpowers, and what they were doing with that. Now, that didn’t make it this direction, but it was something that was internal. You see the same thing with our Māori relations in New Zealand, they’re making comics and they’re putting things forward. So, I think a lot of this is using this medium, this pop culture spheres to be able to address the ways in which representation has been detrimental to Indigenous communities. And I think that that’s what we’re seeing globally – a lot of it having to do with digital access, and the ease with which you can put a lot of this forward.
KATI
We’ve been talking about the recent developments in the past years now, but there are certainly many exciting developments in Indigenous popular culture ahead. So, what is the vision going forward? Are there any specific new initiatives you would like to mention?
LEE
Yeah. This next year we’re going to be here on the East Coast, so we’ll be out here in North Carolina, so focusing some attention out here to our East Coast relatives, because, again, this concept of Indigenous identity is very Western-oriented. And so, wanting to continue the conversation and allow for Native creatives that are Eastern relations to be able to showcase their work as well, and inspire them to be a part of some of that stuff. So that’s one of the big things that I’ve been working on the last couple of years, really trying to get a lot of this work grounded on the East Coast and being able to tell more of these Eastern stories. I think that we’re doing a lot around world building. The new organization that we’ve brought everything under these last years is called the Indigenous Imagination Workshop, so the idea is how we’re cultivating a lot of these concepts coming from these places of fantasy and science fiction and Indigenous futurisms, how are we now applying that in our own communities. Like, what do we want for these fantastical worlds? If we have these superpowers, what do we do with them? How do we make our communities better? And then, how do we actualize that, that’s the inspiration to spark the imagination. So, I’m working on a piece right now that talks about this intersection of generational trauma, and intergenerational trauma, and its effects on the imagination. And so, what does that look like when you have… or doom and imagination, right? We can see all the terrible things, but we have continued to survive, and thrive in many ways, and so how does that look when you’re having to deal with trauma, ‘cause trauma creates roadblocks for imagining. So, how do we work through those and utilize pop culture and utilize these spaces to spark that imagination in our next generations?
SVETLANA
And one last question maybe. I was thinking about the importance – and we stressed it in the book as well – the importance of the celebratory aspect of Indigenous popular culture, the celebration and the having fun. So, I was wondering whether you have any thoughts on that.
LEE
I think it still comes down to celebration, right? Like, how do we have moments of joy? Even within the framing… I mean, everything is always political, but it’s this… I think the counterpoint in pop culture that still holds true, what we have available to us is to find ways to celebrate our identity, our continued exitance, without fetishizing tragedy. Because that’s been the perpetual narrative, it’s about fetishizing Native tragedy – everything [that] happened, look at the poor…, you know, look how terrible everything is for them. And so, the celebration, also, it’s celebration of resistance, celebration of empowerment. Celebration, I believe, gives you agency, and gives people the chance to… when you can celebrate, in moments, then you are able to more effectively dictate the terms through which you are going to navigate a colonial/postcolonial society.
SVETLANA
Yeah, very true. Thank you so very much, this was great! Thank you for your time, and for doing this.
Dr. Lee Francis 4, aka Dr. IndigiNerd, is the CEO of A Tribe Called Geek (ATCG) Media and the Executive Director of Native Realities, both of which are dedicated to creating pop culture media that celebrates Indigenous identity. He is the founder of the Indigenous Comic Con and an award-winning editor of over a dozen comic books and graphic novels. Lee has won accolades for his work on Ghost River, Sixkiller and Native New York. You can find more about his work on social media @dr_ indiginerd. He lives in North Carolina with his family.
